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Jeremy

"This discussion always brings out 2 types and 2 types only: 90% are severely uninformed about mainstream discourse and love their Limbaugh,"
Yes, please inform us (the retarded dittoheads that voted for Bush) how socialism and communism will eventually make us live in a utopian society!!!


"the other 10% are like Ayn Randers (I prefer the ignoramuses). Actually I guess it's 3 types of people cause listen up:"
I guess you would call us here "Ann Coulters"

"Europeans work less than us, and many of them live better"
I see pigs flying right now....!

"(less crime, work less, equal purchasing power, far less income to servicing debt both public and private, WAY better schools, less pollution more trust no homeless people and about 1/6th the annual healthcare expenditure with about 1/7th as much of that expenditure going to beureacracy as does here)"
I'm in heaven already, pass me the pie!

"at least according to the UN (which, yes, I know is a favored target for that 1st 90% of you)."
No, you see the U.N. is 100% legit and clear, it never had any ties with Saddam Hussein, they responded to all the genocides in the continent of Africa, now let us bury our heads in the sand like the ones we evolved from...the ostriches...!

"The 2 most heavily taxed countries are the 2 that live best. Look at Sweden, 2nd highest tax rate 2nd highest living standard."
Yes, that is why everybody is flocking there, immigrants to the country are soaring!!!! Americans are leaving their jobs right now just to flock to Sweden!

"Why do they live so well?"
Because liberals said so...and they never lie.

"No political clout, no resources and they even exceed the UN request for foreign aid contributions!"
Exactly, while Americans are stingy...stingy little bastards ...

"How do they do it?"
By doing the things socialists love best...tax the crap of anything that ever moved!!!

"well if our GINI coefficient, the measure of income inequality were the same as theirs the median family of four would have an income of about $100,000. As it is that number is more like $45,000, TADA!"
(Applause) Wonderful magic trick...

"Don't let people be unreasonably uselessly greedy! What a sweet idea."
Everybody can be the same, the janitor gets paid as much as the doctor and vice versa...wonderful plan...you must be one of Karl Marx's fans!!!

"Sure the richest guy in Sweden probably doesn't even have as many houses as Kerry, but on the plus side ALOT fewer people die because they can't afford healthcare or freeze on the street,"
And that is what Bush is doing right now, he is planning to kick all the seniors out into the streets to die!!!

(((SIDENOTE))) The environment policies of Europe have actually caused approximately 15,000 elderly people die because it wasn't viable for them to acquire air conditioners... go here: http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3340.html


"so maybe that stunning sacrifice of the wealth needed for summer properties did some good after all..."
Just like it did in the U.S.S.R.

"imagine. Laissez-Faire capitalism envisions a winner take all society"
If the winner is taking all, then why is the winner providing thousands of jobs??? But nevermind that, liberals are always right, even if they seem illogical they are logical by their very nature.

"based on the notion that we have NO obligations to fellow members of society besides not killing or robbing them"
Except Democrats have helped America by killing them through support abortion and euthanasia (way to go!!!) and robbing them by making them pay exorbitantly high taxes for pork barrel spending.

"(and the rich have alot of ways of getting around the second obligation anyway, even a few for getting around the first!)."
But the Democrats have already shown us that they are robbing and killing incessantly already...!

"So, yes rich people of America, you owe me,"
You heard him Bill Gates...pay up...what did you say?? Just because he didn't come up with Microsoft Windows doesn't mean he can't have half your money...he intended to create a multi-billion dollar company, didn't he...isn't that what counts for godisdead...?

"and even more you owe that single mom working 2 jobs to support 2 kids."
Does the government need to put her on welfare, or does the local community need to help out through subsidizing ineffective bureaucracies...you to tell me?

"Why do you owe her? You didn't get her pregnant... Why then? Because every hour she is laboring away from her kids, a goodly portion of the profits from her hard work goes into your pocket."
That is probably why she gets a check for what she does every week, unless she works for free.

"So, since the same is true of me you owe me too(and I WANT my reasonably priced healthcare), but you really owe her and you better hope Americans don't realize that en masse."
So, it takes the retarded dittoheads awhile to get it.

"Soak the rich."
That's the number 2 slogan for Dems right after "Viva La France!"

A"nd please no replies based on Reaganomics or "trickle-down you can live off the juices from my rich ass-thory","
It works doesn't it, or is the baby not getting enough pie?

"I am well aware of their contentions and things just don't work that way in real life... anywhere... ever... for any reason ever to have arisen."

It seems like "godisdead" wants to have the whole pie without eating his vegetables (i.e. getting paid for doing nothing) but that's okay, everybody would take a free lunch if offered one...however, this is the real world...I follow the ten commandment that says "Thou shalt not covet your neighbor's possessions..." and I won't break that commandmant by demanding redistributive taxation to get it.

don juan

Awww you are just a bunch of left over marxists from the 60's who are still in a dream world of Utopian ideals and sont know your front from back. just be againsy everything and bitch about it all, if you really got what you are yelling for you would be the first ones taken out and shot for dissenting with your wonderful marxists leaders, you havent got the guts to face reality and work toward something worth while and freedom! of course your freedom is cowtowing to the marxists the likes of kennedy, daschle, reid, durbin etc etc all leftists living in the past.

Tiffany

I realize this is a fairly belated response to PhoenixHack's query regarding gas prices, but here goes anyway: the reason Europeans pay three times as much for gasoline as Americans is because our government subsidizes oil companies--which, by the way, I'm completely NOT criticizing. In the small town where I live, public transportation is unavailable and I have to drive ten+ miles to get to work...which, clearly, I couldn't do on a bike, considering that I live in the Pacific Northwest. In European countries where people are crammed into smaller spaces (or even in large American cities), driving is unecessary--here, it's definitely vital.

JannyMae

Jeremy, if you ever chance to come back, fantastic post!

Tiffany! I'm reminded of a German exchange student who stayed with my family for FIVE LONG MONTHS, several years ago. We lived, at that time, in the suburbs of Chicago. She was amazed at, "how far away everything was," and petitioned her parents, in Germany, to allow us to extend her curfew. She also made comments about how lousy our roads were--until I pointed out to her that the STATE of Illinois was approximately the same size as her entire COUNTRY of Germany. Perspective is grand, ain't it?

reverse_vampyr

Soylent Pie is people!!!!

fazzaz31

You are (mostly) all idiots.

Those of you who can spell can't reason, and most of the rest of you can't spell or reason.

Not one of you even knows what socialism is, you're confusing it with communism, and when you aren't confused about politics, you think that one guy owning 99% of everything is a GOOD IDEA, and f*ck the hungry and old. But when you're old and grey and Social Security is a dim memory and a loaf of bread cost 10 bucks and your heating oil is 7 bucks a gallon, you'll wonder just how good laissaz faire capitalism has been to you.

Infants.

Still, whatever his political position, Larry at least is funny.

Flogging Ferrets

So educate us on the difference, Fazzaz. To me, socialism is communism light. That's like saying that I'd like to be stabbed by the shorter knife. The end result is exactly the same it's only the trip that takes longer.

Social Security will be a pipe dream under a socialist system as well. At least under capitalism, we get the opportunity to open a 401K, 403B etc. Social Security in its current form can not be continued without cutting benefits or raising taxes anyway. Even if we raise taxes, don't we eventually come to the same problem again?

Better to fix the dike than stand there with your finger in it. Unless that's your thing...

Anyway, bread costs less if you are able to make it yourself, so take some initiative. Oh, wait, if you take some of that initiative, you better have enough for everybody.

mmmmmmmm pie

Fox

Someone said I could get free pie here, where is it?

fazzaz31

Social Security is just the popular name. The funds (there are 2) are known officially as the Old Age Survivors Insurance & the Disabilty Trust Funds. Read that again, big brain. INSURANCE. TRUST. FUNDS.

The gov't bets that you won't survive; you do survive and they pay off. Just like regular insurance you might buy from a for-profit capitalist company, like Prudential, except they won't sell it to you because you have a pre-existing disease, called terminal stupidity. Get it? Insurance.

They are paid by a payroll deduction system; you can call them taxes, but they are insurance premiums.

The Trust is held in the form of Treasury Bills, drawing interest, and backed by "the full faith and credit of the United States." They are not IOU's, as the Shrub would have you believe. As a Trust, they are not supposed to be used for any other purpose than to pay benefits from the interest to beneficiaries.The fund will pay out full dividends until 2041 or 2 unless the United States government as a whole goes bankrupt. Since Bush took the US into massive debt, he has been borrowing against the Fund, and by 2042 or so, at the present rate of defecit spending by the present administration, benefits will have to be paid out of the capital. At that point, the SS Admin estimates that benefits will be paid at approx 75-80% of mandate.

But you, of course, are going to opt out of the SS system, put all your money in a 401K invested in GM, go broke and spend the twilight years of your miserable life eating Alpo.

Homemade bread does not cost less than factory items. Bread is cheap at the market because of the economy of scale, but you don't understand that because you don't understand economics. At any rate, it's not my job to educate you about socialism, or communism or even fascism. It's your job to go out a read a book or two and educate yourself. But you can't do that because you're stupid, defined as willfully ignorant.

Have a nice life, mush brain.




Flogging Ferrets

Fazzie, all I asked you to do was to educate myself and the other readers on the difference between Socialism and Communism. You went with calling me names and telling me how "Social Security" is not really there for any of us anyway and thus a great investment.

I agree with you tangent that Bush is spending too much. Assuming that you want to cut the entire war and all of the military, where do you make cuts after that? Once you've cut the military who will defend your social programs from people like me who want to use the recipients for food?

*** on matters of bread ***

So tell me how economies of scale exist under socialist government control? Yeah, how about those stellar Soviet bread distribution networks, huh? Economies of scale only work right in a free market environment because one of the keys to mass production is speed which is a derivative of motivation. If someone gets paid regardless of their actually showing up to work or their performance that's not motivation. Similarly, if the government takes away all of the money you earn working in a bread factory, how motivated are you going to be? This is why socialism is a slow road to nowhere, as opposed to communism's express lane to nowhere.

Shooting people who don't work is motivation, and indeed a popular communist one, but I think that will have other deleterious effects on morale.

Under a free market economy you are correct that bread costs less from the super market. Have the government start making bread and my point becomes perfectly valid. I apologise, bad example. What I meant to say is that the government screws up virutually everything it puts its greasy paws on. If someone can do for themselves it will often be a faster and better way to accomplish a goal than to create a government fund to do it for them.

*** on matters of insurance and GM stock ***

Why should I pay into a system at all that is betting on my being dead? I want to enjoy my money which I saved and I worked for when I want it. A 401K allows me to put my money where I think it has the best opportunity to do me the most good. I'm still betting, but I get to bet the best I can under terms I can manipulate to some degree. If I'm wrong then I can suck it up knowing that I took responsibility for myself and I blew it. Anyway, "Social Security" is only supposed to be an assist, you are still responsible for yourself. The people eating Alpo are the ones trying to live exclusively on "Social Security".

Why would I buy GM stock?

Did you read that last year or so the US Government defaulted on the interest from some 30 year treasuries? Full faith indeed.

*** On matters of debate ***

I am not stupid, though your debating tactic of calling me that makes you look like an ass. What does calling me Mush Brain actually accomplish? Where you hoping your jocular use of the word "mush" would win me over to your point of view? Perhaps you thought that by alienating me you would somehow affect the way I vote?

*** On matters of life ***

Everything in life is a crap shoot. Think about it. What are you actually GUARANTEED. That's right, you are GUARANTEED to die. Everything else exists in vague levels of uncertainty. Heck, the US Government could fail completely by the time you read this, if ever. Then what, smart guy? Perhaps I'll be lucky enough to find you in that lawless nightmare and we can discuss this issue more... personally.

DCCLXX

I can't believe that there are people still having the "Socialism ve Capitalism" debate. That was last century. Capitalism won hands down,,,,,, Its time debate the "clash of Civilization" debate. Islam vr Western Civ (Judeo/Christianity plus Hindi'd Sikhs, Buddists and mostly everyone else non-Muslim) .....Talk among yourselves.

Robert

You forget that under socialism, there is magically plenty of pie for everyone and the gov't (the same gov't that runs such an efficient postal service) is perfect in its distribution of the pies. Why, the only reason this perfect system isn't in the US and all over the world is because Bush, Cheney (who every one knows is secretly the president), Donald Rumsfeld, Rush Limbaugh, Colonel Sanders, The Illuminati, and Big Business are holding it back. They all somehow magically profit off of the seemingly logical, but ultimately evil capitalist system. Why, I wouldn't be suprised if they're secretly funding their anti-socialist system with profits funneled from the illegal war in Iraq, along with their plans to kill all poor people. Wake up people!

Barbara BoxEater

Hillary eats fish pie without using her hands.

GW Crawford

You could use Purchasing Power Parity to "prove" the EU is better off

Mind you the logic of PPP is, instead of giving you a raise, your company is going to repossess your car, move you to a closet sized apartment and cut off your electricity for 12 hours per day.

Your expenses have dropped so much with this, it is better than a raise!

Europe has PPP'd everyone's wages and they think they have sunshine and lollypops

Andrew

It's rather to estimate something without testing it. So I mean it's quiet silly to talk of socialism living in America or somewhere there. The real socialism

yes

what if no religion existed! the only worries we'de have were reproduction and food! so we should thank religion for being able to maim,kill,molest... and so on! and we do!so i'm off to kill a muslim!

Ailin

I don´t think you have ever studied socialism. Really, there is the ideal, and then there were the URSS governments, calling themselves communist, and being nithing like communism should be. I have read about it, and I´m sure that most of anti-socialists out there in the world, make their positions based in ignorance. Especially in the USA, where people is "educated" since born.

DanaC

Hah, I found this site by mistake, but I found it amusing nonetheless. So, I thought I'd join in the 'fun'

I'll let the lot of you jump at me, and proclaim my anarcho-socialist beliefs ahead of time. But, as strongly as I personally believe in the basic (and I stress basic) elements of socio-communal theories, it would never work here. Someone mentioned (as a joke, I assume,) the topic of western civ vs. middle eastern civ; well, essentially, that is tied into this argument as well.

Western civilization, originating from the Barbarians of ancient Europe, have been aggressive social-Darwinists for hundreds of years. (NOTE: When I say Barbarians, I do not mean this in offense, rather, in reference to the actual tribes which have bourne our society). In contrast, Eastern culture has thrived in parallel while behaving more communal and less aggressive. The determinant of "Capitalism vs Socialism" is the culture of the people in question. A friend of mine worded this best- "Take Russia, for example. Here, you had a generation of people who wanted to help each other, so they could, in turn, improve their society. It was just their bastard kids that were born without the same passion who realized "Hey, I don't have to do a damn thing, and I still get money!" Essentially, when you take a western nation and impose a contrary system upon their culture, great conflict will obviously arise.

Yes, pure communism/socialism/whichever term you like to use to address this generalization does fail. But, anything fundamental can fail. This is where moderation is needed. Perhaps social-capitalism? While I'm still subjectively opposed to capitalism, I can at least admit that a mix between the two would be better for the greater society...

Or, for the rest of you, maybe I could buy lemon merengue, you could buy apple, and we could split the two?

Purple Avenger

Perhaps social-capitalism?

That IS the system in the USA.

Diesel

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Diesel

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Arnie

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Patrick

"I don´t think you have ever studied socialism. Really, there is the ideal, and then there were the URSS governments, calling themselves communist, and being nithing like communism should be. I have read about it, and I´m sure that most of anti-socialists out there in the world, make their positions based in ignorance. Especially in the USA, where people is "educated" since born."

This is the whole "communism and socialism didn't work in the Soviet Union because the right people weren't in charge." argument, and it doesn't hold water. Socialism is flawed from its inception. Its based on need and ability; with either society or the individual determining what individual need and ability is. If society determines it, then you wind up with what happened in the Soviet Union, people getting barely what they need to survive, and having to work 80 hour weeks to get it. If the individual decides, then you get lazy bastards who want to work 10 hour weeks, and then claim they NEED that Porsche or Lamborghini.

Socialism claims to be compassionate; but how can any system be compassionate when it leaves out the human factor?

rollsrac

The socialist security system was one of the socialist programs started by a great socialist president, truman, who carried on from his mentor, franklin 'the great society' roosevelt. truman also created the other fabulous agency, the internal redistribution service, medicon, and the humanist underdevelopment dept., to name a few. they promised congress that these programs would only be temporary, but successive politicians (whatever party) kept them; they liked having entitlement tools to buy votes with. so you see the examples of socialism, and the effects of these programs to date.

near bankruptcy, waste and fraud at every level of every one of these programs, by payor or payee alike, sucessive generations whose social, moral and intellectual skills are tanking as we speak, and our ambition for success is turning into our expectation for mediocrity. Now our government is wage fixing, price fixing, stealing private property, forcing us to buy things we don't necessarily need or want, and telling us what we can and can't do about our health.

I hear socialist's cry the loudest about 'big brother' but that's exactly what is happening if we continue to be assimilated by the Borg. Resistance is NOT futile, capitalism can buy many more votes than a pool of poor socialists.

zxevil160

1MGmjs U cool ))

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